Zak argues that channel advice must be interpreted through company stage, brand context, and market timing. ThirdLove found podcasts useful from around 2015, developed strengths in performance marketing and organic social, and had not cracked SEO, while some tactics that failed early became more useful later.

Advice from the same company stage may still miss important context
Channel fit varies by brand and moment in time
ThirdLove found podcasts useful but did not claim they work for every brand
A channel requires sustained testing and learning

“everything's context of like any advice you get”
Heidi Zak · 15:00

“you gotta you gotta test and it takes a while to really crack a channel”
Heidi Zak · 15:30

#marketing channels#stage context#testing

Hot Take· 1

Hot Take24:00

Online Brands Eventually Need to Move Beyond Performance Marketing

Zak said online brands often stay focused on measurable performance marketing because brand spending feels difficult to track and risky. Her view is that a maturing company eventually needs to build a broader brand, while remaining disciplined because brand investment can also be inefficient or excessive.

Performance marketing offers clearer measurement and a familiar comfort zone
Brand investment can broaden reach and deepen what the company stands for
Zak acknowledged that brand campaigns are difficult and scary to measure
She cautioned that companies can invest too much without spending efficiently

“at some point you need to step out of your comfort zone and and build a brand”
Heidi Zak · 25:00

“sometimes people invest too much in it but it also is important”
Heidi Zak · 25:30

#brand marketing#performance marketing#growth stage

Explainer· 2

Explainer04:00

Why the Physical Product Took Longer Than the App

ThirdLove developed a smartphone sizing app and its bras at the same time, hiring an engineer and a lingerie designer as its first two employees. Zak said the technology was easier than reaching the desired fit and quality in the physical product, which required roughly two years of iteration, testing, and focus groups.

The first hires covered mobile engineering and lingerie design
Product and technology development ran in parallel
The physical product required more effort than the app
Fit and quality improved through repeated testing and focus groups

“the technology was actually easier than the physical product”
Heidi Zak · 06:00

“you test you iterate you use focus groups you learn”
Heidi Zak · 06:00

#product development#physical products#iteration

Explainer33:30

Why ThirdLove Chose Not to Sell on Amazon

ThirdLove's core bra product depended on helping customers find the right size through its fitting-room experience. Zak believed moving the sale to Amazon would remove that guidance and could leave women with a subpar experience, while acknowledging that Amazon has helped other companies reach new customers and scale.

ThirdLove treated size guidance as part of the purchase experience
Zak believed Amazon could separate the product from that guidance
The company had never sold on Amazon at the time of the interview
Zak framed the decision as category-specific rather than a universal rule

“most women who purchase from their love do our fitting room”
Heidi Zak · 33:30

“we don't sell we never have sold on amazon”
Heidi Zak · 34:30

#amazon#distribution#customer experience

Story· 3

Story01:30

A Bad Shopping Experience Sparked the Idea for ThirdLove

While working at Google, Heidi Zak bought bras from Victoria's Secret that did not fit and hid the branded bag because the company no longer reflected how she saw herself. After failing to find an alternative brand online, she identified an opportunity to bring the category online.

The initial problem combined poor fit with weak brand identification
Zak searched for an alternative before deciding to build one
She dates the initial insight to 2012
The opportunity was both a product and online-retail challenge

“they didn't really fit”
Heidi Zak · 02:00

“there wasn't one and that was really you know the aha moment”
Heidi Zak · 02:00

#founder origin#customer problem#thirdlove

Story20:00

ThirdLove Donated Excess Inventory Instead of Burning It

Zak said ThirdLove learned that undergarments were a major need for women's shelters and organisations such as Dress for Success. Rather than burn excess inventory, which she said many large retailers and brands do to limit black-market resale, ThirdLove donated bras and underwear to women in need and people affected by disasters; she reported more than $40 million donated by the end of 2020.

ThirdLove identified undergarments as a need at women's shelters
The company partnered with organisations including Dress for Success
Donations also supported people affected by hurricanes and fires
Zak reported more than $40 million in donated product by the end of 2020

“we've actually donated over 40 million now as of the end of 2020”
Heidi Zak · 20:00

“we decided to take a different approach which was to donate our product”
Heidi Zak · 21:00

#product donation#excess inventory#social impact

Story26:30

A Brand Manifesto Enabled a Timely Public Response

After ThirdLove had articulated its beliefs through the To Each Her Own campaign, a Victoria's Secret executive gave an interview that Zak believed conflicted with those values. ThirdLove responded with a full-page New York Times open letter, and Zak said the resulting media, conversation, and brand connection were important even though attribution was difficult.

The manifesto clarified what ThirdLove stood for before the news event
The response contrasted two views of what women wanted from a lingerie brand
Heidi Zak signed the open letter
Zak described the resulting attention as measurable but hard to track precisely

“we decided to take out a full page out of the new york times writing an open letter to victoria's secret”
Heidi Zak · 27:30

“having that manifesto in that brand campaign of who we were articulated allowed us to do that really well”
Heidi Zak · 28:00

#brand manifesto#open letter#brand positioning

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway08:00

Building a Custom Commerce Stack Was a Costly Early Mistake

ThirdLove initially built its own front end and back end because the sizing app seemed to require a custom system. Zak called that decision a terrible mistake; the company moved to Shopify in 2015 and remained on the platform at the time of the interview.

The sizing experience made a custom stack appear necessary
ThirdLove built both the front end and back end
Zak later characterised the choice as a mistake
The company migrated to Shopify in 2015

“we felt like we needed something more custom and that was a terrible mistake”
Heidi Zak · 08:30

“we eventually moved to shopify in 2015”
Heidi Zak · 08:30

#shopify#technology choices#ecommerce

Takeaway36:30

Store Strategy Should Follow How the Category Is Shopped

Zak agreed that stores can bring a brand to life, but cautioned against copying another category's retail model. She contrasted beauty, where women may shop socially, with intimates, which she described as more personal, arguing that the in-store experience must reflect the category's actual shopping behaviour.

Physical stores can deepen brand engagement
Beauty can include a strong social shopping component
Intimates may require a more personal experience
Retail formats should reflect category-specific customer behaviour

“the in-store experience is really part of it right it's the brand brought to life”
Heidi Zak · 37:00

“it's like all about the category and how people shop for the product”
Heidi Zak · 37:00

#retail experience#category strategy#consumer behaviour

Frameworks in this episode

Core Competency Ownership Test

Expansion Milestone Gate

Leader Growth Curve

Product Quality–Message Fit Loop

Risk-Reversal Trial Offer

Insights & moments

⚡Myth Buster· 1

A Failed Channel Today May Work at a Different Stage

◆Hot Take· 1